Sharri Harmel: Welcome everyone to the Extraordinary Women Podcast, and this is episode 111. Well, today I had the joy, the absolute joy to chat with author, multimedia artist, and former standup comedian Deena Goldstein. Deena recently published her debut memoir titled, “Ok, Little Bird,” which is the story of the relationship that she had with her quirky Cowboy father. Yes, you heard that correctly. Her cowboy father, part of Deena’s book, and this podcast actually brought tears to my eyes as I reflected upon my own father daughter relationship. Writing a memoir, especially about family members can be tricky, but Deena shares how she got inspired to write the book. Writing books had really not previously been on her to-do list. Well, I think you’re going to enjoy our chat and have some ideas of your own as well as reflect on the parent child relationships that you experienced. So let’s jump right in. Well, today I am so excited to have Deena Goldstein on who wrote the book. She’s done all kinds of amazing things, but we’re going to talk about some of those as well as the book that she wrote, which is, “Ok, Little bird.” Love the book myself. I have been reading it honestly on my Kindle and it is very, very touching. Welcome. 

Deena Goldstein: Thank you. Thank you. I’m so excited to chat with you today.

Sharri Harmel: Oh good. Tell people a little bit about you, because you’ve had a really interesting career and still do all sorts of things. 

Deena Goldstein: yeah. Kind of jack of all trades. I have a background in marketing and public relations, and I work, my husband and I have a fall prevention home safety business where we help seniors stay safe at home.

So I do a lot of public education and it’s important to let people know how to be safe as they age in place. But my background is in art, and I did standup comedy. Crazy. So, uh, yeah, yeah. 

Sharri Harmel: that is crazy. When did you do standup comedy?

Deena Goldstein: I lived in Chicago in my twenties, and I’ve always written, and I’ve always, you know, everyone’s always said to me, oh my gosh, you really gotta do this. And one day there was a show called America’s Funniest People, which used to be on, and they were having auditions. And I went out and they’re like, hey, we want you to come back. We want to record you for the show. And I was like, oh my God, this is crazy. And I started doing clubs out there and it was really fun. But honestly, Sharri, the hours were insane. I’m working and then I’m going to a club at. Block to perform and trying to get up to work. And I just, you know, for me it just was a timing thing. At some point, I hope to get up and do it again, but, 

Sharri Harmel: oh, the world needs that. Oh my gosh. I love that. Actually, you should just start the show and invite all kinds of comics to actually try out. Why not? Uh, we love it. We need a good laugh. But what about the art? So when did you pivot into the art or were you always an artist? 

Deena Goldstein: I’ve always been doing art. I mean, since I was a little girl, I was always expressing myself either through writing or art. And I’ve been doing multimedia art for years and exhibiting, and I’ve been blessed with some honors, and I work in acrylics and multimedia and much like the book. I can’t paint unless it inspires me. So people that look at my work will look at a Western piece and then they’ll see something really ethereal and wonder, did I snack on something spicy and then take a nap? Or you know because everything’s so different. But life is different. Our experiences are different. And so I create when I’m inspired. And so that’s kind of what my body of work. 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. Interesting. You’re, you’re absolutely right. When I looked at your artwork, and all of you who are listening, the information will all be in the show notes, but go check out D’S Art because it is quite varied, which is really fun to see.

Thank you. Because each piece has a little story connected to it. It does. It’s right. Yeah. It’s very fun. Okay, but back into the book, because you shared that you’ve always been a writer, is that. 

Deena Goldstein: Yeah, I always wrote in high school, I didn’t really do anything with it. It was just something that I did that I really enjoyed.

You know, self-expression, I had a few things, little things published. I actually wrote and illustrated a handful of children’s books. Didn’t do anything with them. I never set out to write a book and my father, when, you know, we’ll get further into it, I’m sure, but yeah, I wanna hear. Yeah, we, I ended up writing this book, uh, you know, I’ll launch it back to you because I don’t wanna jump ahead, but 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But go into that. Okay. So you’ve always been a writer, so talk about kind of a synopsis of your relationship with your father and the passing of your father, and therefore, You know, I’m assuming that’s basically the, as you say in the book, that was what motivated you to write, you felt compelled to write, and there’s so many beautiful quotes that I love personally that are part of your writing when you said, Yeah, it was one, there is no guide to filling in the spaces that can only be filled by the very person who no longer.

I was ready to cry if you wanna know the truth. 

Deena Goldstein: Oh, that actually means a lot. As you’re reading it, the hair stands up, which tells me it’s as impactful when I wrote it. It is for you and other readers. It’s true. Dialing back to my father. He and I were like a comedy team, He was hilarious. He was funny. He was stern, he was strict. And I have two older siblings. They would tell you that. It was like we were raised by a different father. By the time he got to me, baby, the family. I’m sure there’s a million stories out. He was like, Uh, I’m tired. I’m just gonna have fun here. Which could be fairly aggravating to the rest of the family when I’m getting away with things that, you know, they didn’t.

Yes, exactly right. Like how can you do that? And I would be in so much trouble, but He had this veneer about him that could be off putting, he could be gruff, but it never intimidated me, and I was able to get past that. And there were all these amazing goodies that we just developed, this rapport. It was unconditional.

He knew he could joke with me. My feelings wouldn’t get hurt, and I joked back. I got into all the goodies in there and we were so close. We just played and bantered and the, and the book goes through dinners and little vignettes and things, and as he aged, his health declined, and he allowed me the honor of going to appointments with him.

We did life together. And you know, you have this bigger than life father and this unconditional and unforgettable connection, but it’s what happens when little Bird finds out that her father’s not so invincible. And so we all have somebody special in our lives and we know at some point we’re gonna have that loss.

And although we anticipate it’s what we do. With these circumstances when they’re handed to us. And for me it was humor. That was the relationship we had and that’s how I navigated that journey. Before, during, and after.

Sharri Harmel: So was he always a funny guy? So everywhere, He was everywhere. 

Deena Goldstein: I mean, yeah, he could go to a gas station to make people, I mean, it just didn’t matter. Baristas at Starbucks knew who he was. I mean, he would develop a rapport with whomever he was with.

Sharri Harmel: Well, in his Western, is it true like he had this love as I was reading of this western cowboy garb kind of

Deena Goldstein: yeah, Oh my gosh. He had more cowboy boots than like our local store and I’m in Arizona, so that’s staying a lot. And where was, was he? He was here in Arizona. Yeah. You know, I always joke around like, you know, you really need to cut the cord from your parents. I’m like, I’m not cutting any cord. I had an extension cord for a while, and I lived far away and then I came right back. Yeah. Um, I purposely moved here with my family to be close to him, but oh yeah. He lived the life. I mean, he rode horses. He taught us. All the kids to go, you know, we went to the stable with him and he, yeah, he just loved it. He always wanted to be a cowboy. I, you know when he was younger, and so that’s what he did. He was hoisting a saddle on his horse till he was in his mid-seventies.

Sharri Harmel: Oh my. Wow. Oh yeah. Lovely. Yeah, yeah. And but making jokes in the process, it’s, Oh, yeah, 

Deena Goldstein: yeah. Some of them unfiltered, some of them not, but like Yeah. You could be in a department store, and you’re guaranteed whether you wanted people 20 iOS back to hear what he had to say or not. They were gonna hear it because that’s, you know, gumball machine kind of.

Sharri Harmel: So tell us though, cause many of us have lost parents or somebody who we were really, really close to. Where did the book come from? Why a book and why this title? So, Right, 

Deena Goldstein: right. This is a great question. So I never set out to write a book. This was probably one of the most painful things I have ever experienced.

When you’re close with somebody and then you literally are staring down this corridor where you know what’s gonna happen at the end of that story. But you go from being a child to a support system to a caregiver, and then you feel kind of like a piece of you, it’s gone. When I knew what was happening, so my father didn’t die of Covid, he, he had some health complications, had to go into a nursing home, and then covid.

Now I can’t see him, and I’ve got short time. I thought, oh my gosh, this is insane. But like I told everybody else, you find ways to stay connected. You deliver things, you figure out how to zoom, whatever, FaceTime. And so as he declined, we would get reports. And the day before he died, I did not know it was gonna be the day before he died. I went every single day when I found out I can go, and I was sitting next to him. It was quiet in the room. and I, I had that feeling, those inspirations that I have when I walk up to a blank canvas, and I had ’em at that moment. Well, nobody carries paper anymore, so I got my cell phone out, jotted some things down, and a year and a half later I lifted my head up and I was like, wow, I think I have something here. Worked with an editor. She’s like, Yeah, but I’ve sort of somehow or another wrote through the impending loss. The actual loss in following the loss. And it was a remarkable experience. It was painful and joyful in one. Why? 

Sharri Harmel: Because I know some of the information, I got from you was that you have book club kits and whatnot that are available for people who would like to read this book as part of their book club.

But tell me again. Or maybe I’m just not understanding. It’s like, why was this a tribute to him? Or a help guide, if you wanna call it that, to somebody who has to say goodbye. To someone they love. Yeah. 

Deena Goldstein: You know, I love this question, Sherry, for a multitude of reasons. I’m gonna touch on these. Why? Why did I write the book?

Everybody’s got a story, right? If everybody wrote a book, my God. I mean, they’re just okay. But one facet of this is. How we treat people, how we judge people. A lot of times somebody might have a gruff exterior, they might be off putting. If we take people at face value, we miss out on so much depth in a relationship, and it’s my feeling that my ability to look past what I was getting up front allowed me to have the richness and the depth of relationship that I had.

My brother and sister had their own wonderful relationships with him. Mm-hmm., this was me. I mean, it was such synergy and unconditional love talking about filling in those spaces that quote, you know, before he left. We would fill in each other’s spaces. You know, when I was doing poorly in school, you know, in, in junior high, I’d come home with grades that were like, Ah, right.

He never shamed me. He just asked me, you know, Is something hard for you? He asked, he inquired, but he never made me feel bad, and so I never felt like I couldn’t do something. I just felt like maybe sometimes things were difficult and that was okay. Yeah, yeah. Moving forward, he championed everything I did when he had things going on with his health. I was there for, you know, we were at a medical appointment. He was so embarrassed that he had to take his shirt off for a diagnostic test because of the weight loss and so vulnerable. But he allowed me to assist him. That’s an honor. And that’s somebody feeling comfortable that they’re not gonna be judged. And so this is what we did and it’s what we do for people. True, Unconditional. Setting yourself aside, I was so sad that I was gonna lose my father, but I knew I had this time, and so I did whatever I could to drink and whatever those moments were, like many times we would sit in complete silence and then I had to go through a loss. And what do we do when we’re handed this loss? We, we don’t have choices about what’s handed to us, but we do have choices about how we navigate that journey. And I did it with humor. And what an incredible coping tool. Now, I know most people aren’t gonna sit around and go, oh, I thought of the funniest joke. You know, my so just died. I mean, we’re not really ripping jokes, right? 

Sharri Harmel: no, no, no. Not, not on such serious topics. Exactly. You know, 

Deena Goldstein: But here’s an example of that, and this is in the book, so a little spoiler, but not too much. You know, toward the end of the book, I find out I, you know, I’m gonna go to the cemetery to see him for the first.

There’s no rule book. Do you sit, do you stand? Are you talking? Do you bring a lunch? What? You know? Right? Right. There’s no right or wrong. You’re looking around to see if people are watching you, and so, you know, I walk up. It’s truly a sad day. Now, in the Jewish tradition, you don’t have an official stone for after it’s been a year, right? So right then and there, all he had was his little, teeny postcard with his name. And here comes an incoming one liner. All I can think of is somebody going, oh, this is nice, 85 years and all I gets a post. I’ll be lucky if anybody can find me unless a bird poop’s over here. And I start laughing. I mean, this is what’s going on in my head. And I looked up and I thanked him because, this was our humor. Yeah. This was his irreverent sense of humor. And every time I go, if I don’t hear one of those one-liners and they’re in there and I take that essence that we had, those good things that we had, we take them with us because makes that person always with us.

Sharri Harmel: Alive and in a humane way. Yes. Sugar coating are making it all perfect, you know? 

Deena Goldstein: Right. And not always. And not always in the way that we remember ’em in those last moments because anybody that’s been through hospice, you get a whole new vocabulary on physiological changes, respiration, whatever.

You know, even though I’m in the healthcare industry during the day job, when it’s your loved one, you’re just, it’s a whole new science. And so, Huh. These are not the memories you necessarily wanna take with you. It takes a while to dial those back. Yeah. So I’m, I’m grateful for wonderful moments that come back.

Sharri Harmel: Absolutely. Well, not only for this book sounds like it’s not only a step into kind of a perspective or a world that we don’t often talk about when we have to say goodbye to our loved ones, but also preparing our own children or our loved ones. At some point, we’re the one, you know, they say we’re all in the line and at some point, I’m that person and how do I prepare my children to go through this? It’s kind of interesting. So why is that a book club? Why do you look at this as a great book to go after in a book club? 

Deena Goldstein: You know, there’s a lot to unpack here because everybody’s got experiences. What’s happened to me, I’ve spoken to grief groups, I’ve spoken all over the place. There’s been this outpouring of, I’ll have people say, oh my God, I hadn’t thought about her in years. I was crying. It evolves memories and it evokes memories that people haven’t thought of sometimes people reporting that they’re completing their process, that it didn’t allow themselves to go through and it’s a forum to discuss. It’s great for book clubs because you’re discussing everybody’s sharing now, part of the grief process is sharing. Mm-hmm., everybody’s got a story. And in the effort of sharing, we have community and community of support, and it’s okay to feel this way. It’s giving yourself permission. And so in these group settings, The, the dialogue’s been amazing. You’ll hear people laughing and crying and you know, like you pulled out a quote. I’ve had people say, oh my gosh, this quote, I refer to having my breath taken away. Every time that I have to step up, it becomes a reoccurring theme. And so there’s a lot to discuss because everybody’s has these experiences, but everybody navigates them differently. And sometimes people forget there’s ways to do it that maybe they haven’t. 

Sharri Harmel: Really interesting. You had that whole section where you were talking about counting and how we’re counting, you know, especially at the end of someone’s life. Yeah. But actually when you get to a certain age, you become a number in many ways. You know whether it’s your cholesterol levels or your weight or your right, this, or that, whatever it might be. So really recognizing that whatever is going on over there, to some extent. Is not who we are, just as those numbers were not your father. Right. They didn’t define him. No. So true. No. Yeah. 

Deena Goldstein: It’s really a, you know, for that microcosm of time, it does feel like that. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to jump, but I wanted, didn’t wanna lose that thought. This, there’s this microcosm of time, wherever you get embroiled in these numbers like you’re talking about Yeah. Consumption of, you know, beverage, whatever it is. Yeah. 

Sharri Harmel: And eventually how many days you have left. Yeah, I heard about that actually with my own mother. You know, how long, how long does she have? But tell me also where the name for the book comes from. 

Deena Goldstein: There’s a chapter in here about, “Ok, Little Bird.” He was in the group home. We couldn’t see him. Couldn’t see him. And then finally I found out I could go see him and I just thought the planet exploded. Filled with so much joy while I crafted a peanut butter and jelly sandwich and his favorite potato chips, even though I knew he probably wouldn’t be able to eat, but mm-hmm. never go into Hampton, always have food. Cause he used to love to snack and stuff. And they told me because of Covid, we could sit outside his screen door. I could come up and I could wave, and of course we have the mask on, and at that point we didn’t know, even outside 700 yards back, I had to have a hazmat suit on. I mean like Right. Yeah, I know, right? It’s crazy. So of course I would do anything to see him. So whatever it was. I dropped the food off at the front, like I’m instructed, which included, and this is important, a vanilla milkshake. My dad loved McDonald’s vanilla milkshakes. Oh. And close to the end. That was something he was able to easily eat. Not a lot of. It was something fun. Yeah. I never came without a vanilla milkshake, so I brought the vanilla milkshake in the sandwich, dropped it off at the front, and I go around the back and I’m standing there with my mask on, like I’m instructed here. Mark, your daughter’s here. The nurse says to him, rustling around and I’m waiting and waiting, and she’s like, Deena, wait. He wants to come to the door. Well, my dad had no trunk streets, trunk strengths. Sherry, he couldn’t even get out of bed for weeks. So the fact that he wanted to get out of bed and get put in a transfer chair to come to the door, my heart puffed up with joy and cracked simultaneously. It’s like the Tin Man says, I know I have a heart cuz I can feel it breaking. It literally broke my heart. I know he wanted to come does that for me. I know it. Yeah. I felt it. He wanted to be able to have that connect. Sure enough, she gets him in the transport chair and he’s all but conscious by the time he’s exerted himself. I mean, he, he just wasn’t mobile. He gets to the door, I’m now seated, and I know I’ve got a couple of minutes and he starts to pass out and they give him the milkshake, he drinks the milkshake, and then he asks about my daughter. And I know I got about a minute and that was, you know, I said, I sure, I’m glad I could see you today. Because when you go to see, see somebody, you can’t say, I hope you feel better. That’s not realistic. No, you told me. As readers will read, you can’t say it’s gonna be okay when it’s not, because it’s not, and it’s, that’s more for me than him. It becomes condescending. So I have to be mindful in the moment. I am so happy to see you.

I love you and I miss you, and I can’t wait to see you again. Mm-hmm. and after. Like 30 seconds later, he just kind of dropped his head. He said, Okay, little bird. And I knew on so many levels., he was saying goodbye that it was time to go, that he needed to get back in bed and that was it. He got Mm, And I like my breath caught up. I was like and I, no matter how much pain I was in, I always smiled for him. I did not want him, I did not wanna transfer my pain because that would take away what he was going through. I didn’t want to pull him from his experience because that would be selfish. So I sucked up my pain and I held it. And when it closed the door and I just, I just felt like I died inside and I knew right then and there, something would never be the same. And I knew, okay, Little Bird was born, by the way, he had never called me that in my life. He called me a lot of things, but not little. 

Sharri Harmel: Oh, that’s so interesting. Wow. I wondered all of you that are going to read the book, you will get some of this information going forward. So what’s it like to write about family? Because you said at the very beginning your relationship, and that’s true of all of us. I’m one of five and I’m number two. And truly the last two were raised entirely different than the first three. If I’m perfectly honest. I had different parents than, right. My younger brother and sister, youngest, probably. Probably different roles too, right? They were like different people at that point, right? Truly. But what is it like to write about family when and really own that this is my experiences and therefore I have the right to write what my experiences were, but yet respecting and loving your siblings and your mother, tell us about that.

Deena Goldstein: It could be a scary thing. Right? Really scary. Yeah. I mean, we all live close by and we’re all very close. It was very, very important to me that I spent little time on the family and all the focus on my relationship with my father because it was my story. Okay. I also was very focused on being true to fact, and so I called everybody and said, look, I’m gonna be doing this. I want to know. that you’re okay and I’m gonna be sharing X, Y, and Z. Is there anything you wanna share with me? I in no way wanna do anything disparaging because I value my relationships with my family. I love them more than anything. It’s so important to me. And I would never wanna do anything disparaging. So they were like, no, go do you? I did. And during the course I would touch base with each of them. I’m just checking with you, and you know, I wanted for accuracy and, and everything. You know, frankly, it’s nothing’s new. They lived it on the other side, me escaping kitchen duty and then them like mashing their teeth at me, like I’m sitting on my father’s lap, and the two of them had to clean the kitchen while I sort of stayed out.

Oops, sorry. Right. So we kinda all live that, right? I’m just telling it. And so. The framework is set at the beginning of the dynamics between the siblings and the mom and everything. I have an amazing relationship with my mom, super close with her, and so there’s just enough to be framework and then I sail into the story, and they were okay with everything.

I discussed it once it was published, everybody read theirs. Everybody had a different impression based on everybody have a different experience. Mm-hmm., and they all had their own relationship with my father, which, you know, they, they had their own feelings about. 

Sharri Harmel: that’s, it’s interesting. What, how would you have handled, I don’t even know if this is an appropriate question, but how would you have handled pushback?

Deena Goldstein: That’s, that’s actually a really good question because I would wanna find out what is your pushback? Tell me about your concerns, because if I addressed the concerns, I’m gonna get to the bottom of the pushback and then I could have an open discussion. So I would’ve gladly delved into that. I just wanted to tell my story what was unique about it, because this was just a quirky, interesting relationship, but he was just like a bigger than life guy and., you know, everybody’s got some, somebody in their lives who made some kind of an impact. I wanted to be able to lay that framework without stepping on toes. And there was really nothing to step on because when, when my brother and sister read it, they said, Yeah, I, Yeah, I remember that. Oh, I remember that. So for them it was sort of like, 

Sharri Harmel: But also you were very respectful, I think, right up front talking about the fact that, what was that quote? I thought it was absolutely hysterical. I was born at the right time. My father was ready to play. And I thought, you know, you admitted it. He wasn’t playing when the first two children were your age. 

Deena Goldstein: You know, there’s just no, I mean, I would get in his face, I, I just was completely unintimidated by his exterior, which other people could have been. I mean, he could be really gruff, and I’d be like, hmm, okay, are you done making faces? And then he would get disarmed and every time he got disarmed, of course it’s gonna egg me on. Right, right. Well, I learned that when I was little. But it made for such a fun relationship. I mean, you know, we did all kinds of stuff together and then we had a lot of years we were apart, and I’d call him on the phone.

I’m like, Hi, What? I just called to say, hi, Deena, I just talked to you yesterday, you heard me breathe? Is that it? Yes, it is. Good. Are we done here? Yes. I love you. And you know, and I would keep calling. Yeah. And then when I didn’t call, he’d say, hey, you didn’t call.

Sharri Harmel: Isn’t that interesting? Really? What a gift though you were given to have the family you have and the parents you have really, how do you think your relationship with your father impacted and your mother to a great extent impacted your parenting when you had your daughter as well 

Deena Goldstein: You have the best questions I’ve ever been asked. I love things. I love ’em. They’re great, you know. Thank you, both my parents embraced my spirit. They never tampered with me being me. They never put me down. They never shamed me. I was free to express myself. And I think that’s how I ended up in art and singing into my hairbrush all over the house. And, and then I’d sing rubber. Anybody would let me, much to their chagrin

Sharri Harmel: yes, we won’t, we won’t make you sing. 

Deena Goldstein: Yes, but I don’t recommend it. We’d like people to actually listen. So, but so that was life changing for me. So in raising my daughter, I embraced whatever she was interested in. The other thing is, is everything I had to say was important. My parents let me know. I always felt that what I had to say was important. And when my daughter was an infant, she would babble and I’d say, really? And I would listen, and I would, I would, my husband would laugh because we’d go back and forth. She’d be like, you know, And I’m like, Oh, really? I know. And I would smile, and she would engage. And she’s a super verbal, I’m just a wonderful, like the love of my life, my daughter. So when we raised her, we embraced that that free spirit and that self-expression, we never squashed her. We encouraged her to ask questions, open dialogue. It was just an open, free place. Obviously, we have boundaries, you know, socially appropriate, but where her spirit is concerned, she’s free to be her, not what I want her to be. My job is to introduce her to a set of wings and then see what she does with them. Yeah. And that’s what parents did for me. And I’ve never, you know, there’s a story I always tell when I’m doing my art exhibits and it’s one day in class, they give you a handout to color in and they, they handed me Santa Claus. The first thing I grant was a purple crayon. I colored it in, and I took it up to the teacher. I was so excited. She said, Deena Santa is red. Go back and redo. I said, no, today’s Santa’s purple. Yeah. At that moment, I knew I was not gonna get squashed. Mm. Yes, he’s read every place else, but if I’m feeling like I want him purple and so in our lives, you know, have you had anybody ever tell you couldn’t do your purple? Of course. Yeah. It’s confining and frustrating and. 

Sharri Harmel: Well, and it makes you question yourself. Like, why did I want my Santa to be purple today? You know? Oh gosh, I shouldn’t have thought that way. Right. It kind of turns on you in a negative way. Yeah. It’s crazy. 

Deena Goldstein: You do, you start second guessing, is this right or wrong? And, and then to the third part of your question, my dad’s gruff exterior made me completely unintimidated to deal with difficult person. I love dealing with anything that’s a challenge. You know, my husband’s a really strong guy. He’s outspoken and I love that about him, and I embrace that. I don’t.

Sharri Harmel: That’s great. You got past that. Yeah. Well, again, what was underneath the exterior really? Who’s the person underneath this? Has the experience influenced your art in any way?

Deena Goldstein: It’s really interesting. I did not paint during the process I was writing. I mean 

Sharri Harmel: Oh, interesting. That is, first of all, 

Deena Goldstein: yeah, I was so sad and feeling such loss that going to a canvas was okay, and then the book I was pouring myself, my creative vessel was being poured into the book, so I didn’t have anything in my little art compartment. You know, we, we all have little compartments. after it was released, I was, so, I wasn’t depleted. Okay. I guess I was depleted. Yeah. in a very positive way, but it wasn’t until recently I just popping canvases up on my easel and it, it’s a little bit challenging. I’m, I’ve gotta find that space again because I’ve been so focused on my dad from the time, he was sick to his passing 

Sharri Harmel: So, and that’s been what, three years or going Almost, almost four, 

Deena Goldstein: actually four. His, his journey of health issues started like, Yeah, it’d be more like four, four years. And I would go to the house. I was bringing lunch; I was Johnny on the spot for whatever.

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. Wow. What’s it like to write a take away the, the, the subject to some extent, if you can. Cuz there’s lots and lots of people who want to write books and feel they have a book inside of them or several for that matter. What is it like, what is that? What goes on in your life and how much does it impact or intrude if we look at it on the other side into the rest of your

Deena Goldstein: Does carrying my laptop at four in the morning from into the kitchen to start typing count, because I vividly remember bolting out of bed going, oh my gosh, I figured this out, and I, Oh, wow. My husband’s like, what are you doing? I’m like, oh, does the clock say four because my brain is awake? Yeah. I mean, it definitely can be consuming. Okay. Because your head when you know what you want to say, and you know what you feel. It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when. I mean you have inspirations. I would carry paper. I’d have these thoughts at random times, like, hold on. You know, I’d be in the middle of one thing. It can be consuming, but it’s pretty wonderful because when you identify something that moves you, that you want to write about, it just starts coming out if you have to sit. And it’s so much work. And you know, I always tell people, if you’ve got an inspiration, it doesn’t matter how you express it. Like you know what you do is inspiring. You connect with people; you have a format to share. And when you’re interested, it flows. So when you have that information, the writing flows, it’s amazing. I love it. I hope to do it again. It was so fulfilled., you don’t realize how much you have to say to you. Have a platform to do it. 

Sharri Harmel: Wow. Yeah. Tell me more what that means. 

Deena Goldstein: Writing is so fabulous. When you sit down, the first thing I tell people is, don’t be perfect. Get your thought out. I didn’t sit down to write a, I just sat down and started stream of consciousness and I was naming. 

Sharri Harmel: You didn’t lay out the outline and then No. You know, you just started writing, 

Deena Goldstein: free writing. I wrote and wrote and wrote, and then halfway through I was like, hmm, this is sort of taking on a structure. And then I did identify an editor outside of New York and just had some chats with her. She’s like, Yeah, content wise, this is very universal. Now be thinking like this. So halfway through I was like, I had a loose structure. Yep. I kind of mentally packed that away because I didn’t wanna get so focused on structure that I lost my content because it becomes contrived. So I just kept, I didn’t check grammar. I’m just like putting my thoughts out there. Got it all out there. I had lots of it. Then you go. because from the time that you wrote the first thing to the time you wrote the last thing, things look a lot different, and you’ve become a little more well-honed.

You know? It’s kind of like working out the first two days in the gym. You’re a little rusty, you’re a little sore. As you get into it, you get a little bit more refined. Not through intention, just through practice. Mm-hmm., you know? Mm-hmm. through sentence structure or, or grammar. We find ways to express ourselves in our day-to-day dialogue.

It’s kind of like going into the drawer for your favorite t-shirt. We use the same thing over again. Yeah. But when you’re writing, sometimes you wanna find a different new way to say something. Yeah. And that, for me was the greatest thing. It was so inspiring to figure out different. To express what I was feeling.

Same thing I do on a canvas. You do it with color. And in a book, you do it with words, I think about how it made me feel, what color that looked like, what did I feel like when that was happening, and how do I wanna communicate that? How would this feel for somebody else? 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah, the reader, because when we communicate, when we’re talking, you and I are on Zoom. Those of you who don’t know this, we record on Zoom, so I can see D. There are all kinds of nonverbal communication that comes through where when you’re reading a book on your Kindle or you’re reading a paper copy, you don’t have. You’re having, you’re listening only to what the author is actually writing. I would think that would be incredibly difficult. 

Deena Goldstein: It is, and what’s interesting is their tendency is to tell about something versus your character literally telling it. There’s a difference in the reader experience. No, it’s like being talked at versus it would be like me saying, Sherry went to the store and bought four things versus you going, Boy, this store’s got the worst lighting. Suddenly that’s engaging. Yes. Now I’m in your experience. So I wanted readers to be in this experience, to feel the breath coming out me, to feel the pain, to feel the joy, to feel the unconditional love, and to feel something maybe they haven’t felt about somebody in their lives. And to know that you can go through anything. Even it’s, it’s the most difficult thing and things will be. Just because they’re painful doesn’t mean they’re not gonna be okay. So I wanted to write in a way for people to feel through the words and know that they can feel that on their own and be okay.

Sharri Harmel: Beautiful. It’s really beautiful. But the, go back to the writing process. How long did it take you before. You were ready for publication? 

Deena Goldstein: About a year and a half. Uh, it was a little over a year, and then the publishing process is its own masterclass and everything. I mean, really? Yeah. I’m like, Wow. Yeah. It’s not like I had anybody to ask. I was on my own. I was doing this on my own without guidance. I did my own research. I did a lot of research. You know, when you invest yourself in writing, you have to invest yourself in the process of publication. You need to understand what you’re, do, what, what the outcome is, right? It just, you know, from words to it, showing up on a Kindle and a book, take information and research, so it’s, people wanna know. what your synopsis is. What do you want your book cover to look like? Who are you, why are you writing this? Kind of like what we talked about at the top of the show. You know, why are you writing this? Why do people wanna read this? What is it about, what, what font do you want? I mean, there’s a million little considerations that you’re not thinking about because you’re so busy getting your story out. Suddenly, what’s it gonna look like? What is this gonna look like for the reader? Do you want big, small, long chapters? Do you want photos? Do you, I. Suddenly your book has to come to. 

Sharri Harmel: Well, it’s almost like the business of the book, you know? That’s exactly what it is. Yeah. So you write the book and then you deal with the business of the book. Right. Which is really hard cuz that book is like your child. 

Deena Goldstein: I would completely, it’s like sending it off to school and you’re like, no, I’ll take it back. I have more control, you know, I wanted to. Control over this book. I, The, the cover was very important to me because the cover says a lot. Mm-hmm. for, I haven’t seen the cover. This is what the looks like. Yeah. It’s beautiful. And you have two characters on there. I’m pretty sure you can guess one. The father one’s little bird with this cowboy hat, with this cowboy hat. And when we think about a cowboy being done for the day, his hats in his hand. He’s tired and this cowboy’s walking away from me, he’s leaving, but I’m smiling. I’m kind of Amish because. That’s who we were. Everything’s okay, but there’s light, there’s this path, there’s, there’s a lot that, there’s a lot of dynamics that I wanted on this cover, so I conceptualized the cover and then the publisher actualizes it for you.

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. It’s great. So would you write another one? 

Deena Goldstein: Definitely. I’m like, I can’t do it right now. I just, I have to, I’m right now, I’m just drinking this and this has been the most miraculous experience. The best part was writing it, doing something that I never imagined doing before.

But really just connecting with so many people, like mm-hmm., reaching out. Oh my gosh, Deena, this is amazing. I, I haven’t thought about the reader. Interaction’s been incredible, so fulfilling for me. I definitely wanna write again. I have some inspirations that I’m thinking about, but the time is not right now because I wanna be mindful of the experience that I’m still having with Little Bird, which has only been out for about seven months. 

Sharri Harmel: Well, and for those of you that may not know, this is in the business of writing, Deena actually reached out to me and said, I’d love to chat with you about the book and what I’m doing, which actually I think is a great way to think about being an author, which takes us that maybe represents the different parts of you. Because you’re a business woman as well as an artist, as well as an author, but you stepped away from the experience of writing and now got into the business of the book who can share this? Is that true?

Deena Goldstein: It’s so well stated, Sharri. It is the business of the book because you can have something out there, but unless you share it, nobody knows. Nobody knows. Yeah. It’s not enough that it’s sent, you know? Yes, it’s available on Amazon or wherever else. You have to connect with people. I’ve always been about connecting our relationships. I want to share, and so I spend a lot of time, sometimes in the wee hours of the morning, just like I did when I was writing. I connect, I make connections, and I spend time talking and answering questions. I want to share. I want to connect. This is so important to me because when you have something that’s so important, not just cuz I wrote about my father. But I want people to know that they can go through things that are challenging and be okay. I want them to know that they can meet people that might have difficult exteriors. But there’s something behind there. Mm-hmm. Take the time to get to know that person. Drink in every moment, have no regrets. Things can be okay. Just because they’re not the same doesn’t mean they’re not gonna be okay, kinda the new normal. And with all this passion that I put into this book, I put the same amount of passion into reaching out to people and I, you know, reaching out to you. Yeah. Because I loved what you were doing. Cuz you’re reaching out to people, right? 

Sharri Harmel: Find those people who are of the same mindset or the same outlook towards life as you. But you have to, as an author, you have to do the work. You have to step into the business of the book. And I love how you just said, you can write the book, post it on Amazon, but if you don’t get onto the business of the book side and start to talk to people about it, it will languish. It will just sit there. Is that the way we want to go? Cause you invested a year and a half of your time into writing. 

Deena Goldstein: You have to be out there. You have to be willing to talk to people. You, you know, you can’t be shy. I mean, I called people perfect strangers and introduced myself. I’ve reached out to hundreds, thousands of people all the way to Dublin, Ireland.

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. Cool. Though I think it’s inspiring if you wanna know the truth, it’s just, to me, it’s honoring yourself to Deena, that you’re honoring what you created and that therefore the creation and saying, I owe it to you to step out of my insecurities, my vulnerabilities, whatever. And people and talk about this book. 

Deena Goldstein: Oh, I love that. Yeah. Well, thanks. I, you know what, that feels like a warm fuzzy, cuz I don’t think about those things, you know? Oh, when you’re in the middle of doing something, you’re doing your project and your passion mm-hmm. you don’t, sometimes you don’t take a step back to go, wow, look what I, I did, and I don’t. For me, I don’t, I just, I keep moving forward. I don’t. Sit back to have those little snippets. 

Sharri Harmel: Right. And you need to, you need to do that little

Deena Goldstein: I know I do it with chocolate, but I never do it with my life.

Sharri Harmel: Well, that’s almost as good, but sometimes we do. 

Deena Goldstein: It’s pretty close. 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah, it’s pretty close. But sometimes we do have to say, Am I honoring my own gifts? You know, and I think the fact that you are on this call today talking about the book, everyone, It’s okay. Little bird down in the show notes. That’s how we honor ourselves. Yeah. To get our work out there and to talk about it. Thank you. 

Deena Goldstein: It’s true. It feels good. I love, every time I get a chance to talk about the book, I just, I thoroughly enjoy it and I, I have a piece of my dad with me, and it always brings a smile to my face. I constantly have those incoming one-liners, and I, I hope that readers will laugh out loud. I hope they find joy and inspiration. They’ll probably have to grab her tissue. I’m told, I just, I hope that they’re, they really connect with, how can we not? I’m always open to discuss.

Sharri Harmel: Okay, so book clubs, all of that. See if this is something that you think you want to bring to your group or bring to a larger audience. Deena is here. Thank you. This has been Thank you. Lovely to talk to you today. Thank you so much. Well, it’s, and I just have to add the story about the white shoes was, it just made me chuckle. I’m not Jewish, I’m Catholic. And so we always had these darn white shoes that came out in between, uh, right at Brown Easter time, Usually Easter. Oh my God. And it, it was always a problem. But that was, and that was the most adorable story. It really was. So everyone checks out the white shoes. 

Deena Goldstein: I have to tell you funny story really quick. I know we’re probably almost out of time, but you know. Yeah. He was a stickler. My father was like the best dressed guy and just everything. If we came out, it was like Theon Trap family. If you came out and you had wrinkles and scuffs, you were going back upstairs for a redo. I was always focused on my shoes. Fast forward, I’m going to a book signing. I go to put my, you know, my shoe and I had those like wedges. Yeah. And it had white and there’s a big black scuff. And I started laughing and I thought, hmm, do I go with the scuff or am I gonna clean? I thought, no, I guess I better clean it. You know how ironic, right? Gonna go out there with that scuff. No. Dragged your feet in the parking lot is what he’d say.

Sharri Harmel: Exactly. I love that. 

Deena Goldstein: What he says, you no, you can’t keep those shoes clean. It’s possible.

Sharri Harmel: No, no, but it what? What did he say?

Deena Goldstein: You walk like, What an ape. Yeah. said, what are you dragging your feet? I shoe for like 20 years.

My shoes don’t like this look like this. I’m thinking to myself, Okay, you don’t have white patent letter Mary Jane, where all you have to. Do you know how they like stick when you walk? Yes. Mean all he had to do was look at ’em and it got scuffs and I’d clean them up. And then that chalky shoe polish, I mean, anyway.

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. Hysterical. Yeah. So everyone, you’re gonna laugh and cry, I mean, it was great. So thank you Deena. And again, everything’s down in the show note, so check it. Well, beautiful, wasn’t it? I have to share that. Deena sent me this truly beautiful little silver bird after our first conversation. She is what I would call an Extraordinary Woman. You can purchase. “Okay, Little bird” on all the major book seller sites and thank you for joining us today and until next week’s podcast, À bientôt.

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