Transcript:

Sharri Harmel: Hi, Morgan. Hey, it’s so lovely to have you on. I’m so excited because I’m both a reader as well as the want to be writer, as well as maybe an entrepreneur, a newbie. If you want to call it that you, I just know are going to have all this wisdom to share with us. And we’ll hear more about Paper Raven books too, which everyone will be absolutely fascinated by.

I just read that you started out in academia as a sociologist. I don’t know many people. I was in academia for a short period of time and certainly not in the sociology. There’s like no entrepreneurs in that space. Where did this come from? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: To be fair? My parents are entrepreneurs, so I grew up totally different industry.

Right? My parents buy and sell mineral rights, which are the rights to minerals below the surface. So that’s where oil and gas drilling happen. I’m from like small town, west, Texas, if you’ve ever seen Friday night lights, that is very accurate, small-town west, Texas. So, my, my dad was an entrepreneur for much of my, all of my childhood pretty much, but I didn’t have any sense.

How he started his business or ran his business or anything like that. And my family was so bookish. We always have lots of books, lots of reading, lots of, you know, love of, um, of finding a new good book. And so, when I was doing well in school, I was high school. Newspaper editor did well in university, you know, all the theses and stuff like that.

I had a professor who I really looked up to. It was a mentor of mine who said, you’d make a good. Professor. And I was like, well, that’s a heck of a compliment. Sure. Neither I can do it. You know, um, you know, over here, like 20, you know, young 20 something, not really sure what I want to do in life. And so did the whole thing with the exams and the letters of recommendation and all the applications and my fiancé at the time was also applying to law school.

So, we’re just, you know, doing that whole process together really. And I landed in a great doctoral program for sociology. Great. On paper grading, you know, faculty well-researched R one institution, you know, like everything that you would want. Um, I was getting paid to be a doctoral student, which was pretty sweet gig as a 22-year-old.

But, um, I just didn’t, I didn’t thrive there, and I wasn’t really sure why it was just, it was so different. It was, it was entrepreneurial in a way in that you had to define your own research focus and really go after that, that topic that was going to become your dissertation and would be the beginnings of your, of your tenured professorship, right.

Was like, that’s going to be your research thing. And I just never found anything that was like my cup of tea, I guess. Like, so what I ended up doing was helping other students and junior faculty with their research, reading their papers, re you know, their, their theses or dissertations, their articles. I was editing and, and kind of writing coaching and being a sounding board for their research.

And then after a couple of years, I had the master’s degree in my hand and I was like, do I want to keep ended up leaving? Which was a big decision, you know, when you’re young 20 something. And, and at that point, I actually, I was also pregnant with my first child, and we were moving to New York for my husband’s job.

And I was. I have no idea what I’m doing in life, but I guess I’m not going to be a professor. So, I mean, and that said, I did actually teach sociology at the college level on long island moly college. I was there through when we had our first couple of babies in, in New York, but yeah, it was, it was just not a great fit, you know, and I think some of us may be experienced that whether it’s an academic program or job or something, we’re just like, ah, I don’t know.

It just doesn’t feel like me. And it takes a lot. It takes a lot sometimes 

Sharri Harmel: to, to get up and leave. It does take, it takes a lot of courage, so. Okay. So now you’re, you’re a mom of how. Right now, we have four. So, ladies hear this, you know, she’s got a business going, she’s got four babies and a husband. I’m assuming.

Yes. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Still the husband is still sticking around with this yesterday. Crazy much.  

Sharri Harmel: That’s a lot of balls in the air. My goodness. At what point did you say I have to do something more than being. I have to, yeah, I have to do something more than being a wife. And did that come from, I got to do something for Morgan.

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Where did this happen? Where did this come from? Hoboken, New Jersey, winter of 2010. So, we’d moved to this city sort of Hoboken, New Jersey, kind of like across the river. Cause my husband’s an attorney. So, he was doing that big law thing, which is fine when you’re single, but when you’re doing one income with a family and all this, it was, it was tough.

So, we were looking for a cheaper place to live and it was my first real winter. So, I’m from Texas. We’d gone to school in Colorado, but Colorado’s winters are not that bad. And then grad school in Tennessee. So, you know, like not, not really exposed to it. So, first baby, she’s like nine months old. We’re living in this tiny apartment, and it snows for like months and months and it’s just.

And a baby my ever live in line is what’s happening. And so, I started applying for like all the random sort of side gigs and side hustles, and eventually realized that a skill that I have is, is editing. I’d been doing it in grad school. Um, also learned that there’s a thing called writing coaching, which really only became a thing in the last I don’t even.

1520 years. It was a new thing. Like what does a writing coach, someone to talk to while you’re writing, but just started doing that freelance on the side, uh, really, and, and reached back out to my academic colleagues and said, I’m now available for freelance editing. Do you have any referrals? That sort of thing to really start growing that freelancing business.

And I did freelance for years, five, six years in addition to teaching and having, having kiddos. And of course, there were, you know, nannies and stuff like that, or babysitters involved to sort of compartmentalize life. 

Sharri Harmel: So how important was it though that you, that you chose to take care of you in that process that you did?

Because it wasn’t easy. It would have been much easier to just be a stay-at-home mom.  

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I guess, but it didn’t feel easy. It felt like I did not want to be, I just terrible. I just didn’t want to be with my kids all those hours.

Sharri Harmel:  It doesn’t sound terrible. I hear that, I’m a coach and I’ve heard that over and over and over.

Like when women go back after maternity leave to the office and people say, you must be so sad. And they said, how, how could I have said, no, not really. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald:: You know, truly what is the truth though? Right? I mean, a few hours at a time and they are lovely, but like from like 6:00 AM to 10:00 PM and you’re like, oh, I’m going to lose my mind.

Sharri Harmel: And you do eventually I was a stay-at-home mom and, and honestly, you know, I’m of a different generation than you. I would never recommend to my younger self to go do that again. I really wouldn’t because you invest too much time in your education in things, you know, thinking through things that you like.

I’m a really good editor. I think I want to do something with this. If you have never pursued that you wouldn’t have connected to those parts of you that you Excel at that have nothing to do with being a mom, um, have nothing to do with even being a wife 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: or a daughter. And it was a conversation because I mean, basically I was making.

As much money as was going to the babysitter. You know, whether I was teaching or freelance editing, I tried to do most of my freelance editing at night and at nap times and things like that to try to help, but it was, you know, a pretty much zero-sum kind of game. And it basically became like, sure, Morgan, you can explore this.

Can you make enough money to pay Laura to come on Tuesdays and Thursdays for six or eight hours each day? We just had to be really Frank about, about that conversation. And my husband had to be on board. So, I really had to enroll him in my vision for like this, this life of being like stay-at-home mom.

Like I sort of thought might work as it turns out it’s not working for me. I want to do something more and, and really having to. It all comes down to persuasion in some form or fashion, right? You, you have to persuade the other person who is in life with you, that this is a good idea for both of you. So luckily my husband’s a good sport.

Sharri Harmel: 

He’s come along the whole journey, the whole ride. Okay. So, so you were freelancing working pretty much as a writing coach fitting it in. And when did Paper Raven books happen? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: So, we started as paper even editing. That was the initial sort of doing business as that I filed back in. I don’t even know when I filed that.

I know you filed it in 2013 as like an official business. I had been a freelance editor. 2008, 2000, something like that, 2007, 2008. And so, we’re talking five, six years as, as paper even editing. That was also the year that I was starting to do more marketing online, taking online business courses, trying to figure out this whole world and started to get enough clients that I realized, wait, I don’t think I have to do all the editing anymore.

You know, like I think I could bring editors onto work under me. And so, I went out to Upwork, which was, I don’t even know if Upwork still exists, but like freelance, you know, network, um, and said, I’m looking for editors and I would pay them, you know, a certain amount. And then I would make sure that the business paper even editing kept a certain margin on each project, basically.

And so, it was a pretty simple model to start with. And then we worked with dozens of clients on their books. Um, and we started cultivating book clients. So really seeking to work with books.These were people who wanted to publish. Cause I see a broad cross sector. On your website, Paper Raven books. And what you’ve published from nonfiction to romance, to mysteries, to you name it.

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Yeah. So early days it was, it was pretty bread and butter was non-fiction. So, it was maybe it was a professor who wanted to write a trade book. You know, those were some of the early ones, but then it became more and more like someone who’s been a therapist or a speaker or a consultant or a coach, like writing their own book.

And you know, those folks, they want someone who understands research, who understands conveying data and things like that. So, we were a good match for those non-fiction books, especially in the early days. And then they would come back to us a couple, you know, like a year or two later and say, thank you for helping me to edit this book.

It’s a, it’s a word document. No one has agreed to publish it. You know, can you help me to publish the book? And I said, well, I don’t know how to publish a book. I know how to write a book and how to coach someone writing a book and had edited a book. I don’t know how to publish a book. And that was 2015.

And finally, I had, I had probably six or seven clients who said, when you figure. I want to be first Guinea pig, like please. And so, I said, okay, fine. I’m going to write my own book. It is very straightforwardly called start writing your book today. It’s a methodology on how to write a book. And I figured out how to publish it, took the notes along the way.

And I said, okay, we can create a system out of. Went back to those clients. Is that okay? You said, do you want to be a Guinea pig? Here’s what we’re charging to. Self-publish your book with you? And I went out back to my networks and said, I need a, you know, someone to help with design. I need someone to help with formatting.

And we just put together this team and started this, this process. And that was in 2015. So, we did a handful of books that year, just figuring out the best practices and how this all works. Do a lot on Amazon trying to figure out that Amazon algorithm, what makes it, you know, really click into place. And now in, you know, seven years later, we’re doing 50 books in a year.

And we now, because we have such an editorial team, we don’t need to just do nonfiction. Sure. We’re, we’re still, you know, rock solid and non-fiction, but we can also do memoir and fiction and especially trilogies because we’ve figured out how to really market the book. Well, was what we were w what were really, um, the nut we were cracking is yes, you can publish a book as it turns out.

Publishing is not even that tricky. Launching it in a way that gets the visibility gets the readers, gets that review the reviews on the book and helps the author to really connect with the right segment of readers. That’s we’ve been cracking for the fast past few years. 

Sharri Harmel: What part of that are you still involved in all the different steps are all parts of the process and if not, is there some aspect of that that just totally jazzes you, you love because it’s, it’s a changing world all the time. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Yeah. So, I do a lot of the sales and marketing for the business, right. So, I am delivering the webinars and writing the emails and really thinking about how people could come to know about paper and books and really being that kind of the spokesperson for the company.

Um, and I’m also the sort of main researcher for like, how could we improve this process? That’s really kind of, I’m like the innovator of like, thinking about how could we get the book into, you know, different online stores or different bookstores, or how could we get into different readership communities?

Could we build readership communities? That’s kind of where my brain spends a lot of its time because the actual delivery process. So, so solid now, like we have eight contractor team members who are on retainer in every project every day, plus specialists who come in for certain types of projects. And so, you know, everything is systematized out.

We’ve got checklists galore, everyone knows timelines, everyone knows all the FAQ’s. Everyone knows the process kind of inside out. And so, I’m brought into consult on occasion. Like if we run into something new or unusual, you know, I’ll come in and consultant, try to figure out how can we do this today?

Sharri Harmel: What would be newer, unusual. Tell me, tell me more about that. Is it a problem with a writer? Is it a problem with a topic of a writer? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: So, for instance, um, one of the things we were thinking a lot about now is audio books because audio books continue to rise in popularity. And for many years it was, it was very easy.

It was like, well, we put it on Audible inside of ACX. We have an author who’s just about to launch who’s out of the UAE, not in the U S. And he actually cannot use audible. So, we’re thinking, well, oh, can we use like Spotify recently acquired an audio book company called find a way voices, can we, you know, use that?

What are some other ways? But if it’s in Spotify, you know, audio books, how do we use our Amazon presence to let people know that the book is on Spotify? So, it’s those kinds of like things that are a little bit unusual either because of the author’s location, just all the tech pieces are not all fitted together yet.

Sometimes I’m brought in to consult on like, if an author wants to do some live events and wants to think about different pros and cons, you know, should I get a thousand books printed and bring them with me to sell on the. Or should I go to bookstores and ask the bookstores to order my book, you know, maybe each book or an order 50 or a hundred copies of the book, and I could do an event there.

So, I kind of come in and help the other think about the different marketing possibilities, um, for, for the book. And then of course the team can make it happen. But if we’re kind of trying to make decisions like that, then I’ll often come in and just help facilitate that, that decision on yeah. 

Sharri Harmel: Very strategic and creative to, into, and seeing connections that the average person may not question.

Cause I, I, you know, so many people talk about there’s a book in. They’ve got the book. They want to have a book or their coaches or they’re, you know, not necessarily coaches, but say even a yoga therapist or something of that sort. And they want to write a book, but they just don’t know. And actually, I talked to somebody just recently who started a blog because she had a book, and she went to New York to visit with an agent.

This was a number of years ago. And the agent said, do you have a platform? Does anyone know who you are? And she said, well, I have like four Facebook friends, and this was in 2011 or something. And they said, you know, you can’t, you can’t sell a book unless you have a presence. Now that was 2011. Can you speak to that?

Just from the standpoint, this is a bit of advice. For someone who’s already got a business. Maybe doesn’t have a very big platform or following, if you want to call it that, do you write the book to get the following or do you need the following to write the book or publish the book? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I love it. Sorry.

You’re like right on like the heart of the question you nailed it. You know, that’s the, that’s the big debates for both publishers and for authors. And so, I will say that you can actually go. Hmm, really can, you can do either way. They’re both possible. There’ll be different avenues depending on where you go.

So maybe it would be helpful for me to talk about the four different sort of publishing options that are available, sort of in a broad, broad scope. And that can help us to see, okay, do I fit more on this side or more on the side? So traditional publishing is kind of the name brands that we’re familiar with, right?

Penguin, Random House, Simon Schuster, those, those big publishing houses. They absolutely want someone who has a following because they want someone who can help them sell the books. Typically, the route there is that you write a proposal. If it’s a nonfiction book, if it’s a fiction book, you write the whole manuscript, you go out and you try to get an agent and that agent will shop the manuscript to, or the proposal to different publishing houses.

You’ll see, who’s interested. If you have more than one publishing house interested, they might even bid, um, I have a friend who’s going through this process right now. And, and so it still happens. Like she’s got a six-figure advance in, in her hand as an option. And so. She has a massive following.

She built the online business. She has hundreds of thousands of followers and subscribers and, and thousands of customers. Right. And so, as a traditional publishing house, you think, ah, wow, that’d be great. She could help us sell books. Right. We can sell direct to her audience. 

Sharri Harmel: Maybe they don’t know how to sell books.

Morgan Gist Macdonald: It has become trickier. Right? That’s a lot of reason why they’re looking for people with big platforms is because it was easy back in 2005 when they could just send books to Barnes and noble and readers were coming into Barnes and noble and readers would buy the books. They’re like, it was easy, but now so many people are buying everything online, including books.

And so, they need help. So, they’re looking for people who’ve cracked this online marketing formula who already have a hundred thousand or more subscribers or followers or people on their email list. And they will partner with them to, to produce a book. Okay. I realize I’m painting in broad strokes here.

So, there may be. Smaller traditional publishers that don’t need as many followers, but they want to know how are you off going to help us sell these books is the big question in their mind, around the, the advent of the Kindle in it was right around then in 2005, 2007, the Kindle came onto the marketplace and made it easy for people to basically upload a word document.

It would go onto the Kindle platform and then people could access the book through their Kindles. So that was when self-publishing really took off. And so self-publishing is definitely still very much an option. It’s gotten easier and easier over the years. And the good news is you just get to decide when you’re going to publish your book.

Now you have to pay for your own editor, your own designer, your own format, and get the book out there. And then once it’s available, now, it could be available as an eBook, a paperback, a hard back, a large print audio book. All of these versions are on you to also figure out who’s going to buy the book right.

And get it out to them. And so, then this other type of publishing company really came in to try to split the difference it’s called hybrid. Okay. The hybrid publishing is where you both contribute to producing the book. So, the author pays, you know, five, 10, $15,000, and the publisher kicks in a similar amount and together you produce the book.

If it’s a good hybrid publisher, they will be able to help get the book into bookstores. And then you’ll also split the royalties, maybe 50 on the backend, something like that. Some hybrid publishers have distribution to bookstores. Some don’t, some will help with editing some loans, some put the book files into their account with their password, locking it, some will give you access.

So, there’s some questions that people really need to ask. And I’m sorry, I’d be happy to share with you a list of questions that I encourage people to ask. And we can put those in the show notes or whatever would be helpful. Yeah. And then the, really in the last, like, I would say 10 years or so, this fourth option has, has popped up called self-publishing services.

That’s where Paper Raven fits in. It is more for people who like the idea of self-publishing. They don’t mind putting the bill. They don’t mind paying for editing and design and all that sort of thing. So long as they get the benefits of self-publishing as well. The book is theirs. It’s their creative vision, their legal rights, their profits, all that is theirs.

And so, then it becomes about finding a really high-quality self-publishing services company. You have a team that really knows what they’re doing and will do the work to, to your, uh, you know, specifications. We’ll do good work the way they want it done. And so those are the four types. And so typically if someone wants the big public.

You got to go out there and get your following going. It’s easier for nonfiction. We are able to, you know, grow an email list, get on podcasts, do interviews, and start to get our name out there. Fiction folks. It’s harder as a fiction. Novel is how do you grow a following before you have a book? Like, I feel like that’s a pretty tricky double standard, you know, chicken or egg situation.

It was good. 

Sharri Harmel: Really? My memoirs. Fantastic. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Exactly. Exactly. I write good. You should follow me. It’s so tough. And so, there’s plenty of, there’s plenty of case studies or use cases where it’s like, you should write the book first, right? I mean, I did that. I had like 75 people on an email list. Basically. It was my clients on an email list.

When I wrote my book super small following built my business off the back of that book. And we have many, you know, um, coaches and consultants they’ve spent their career in. You don’t have an email list. You’ll need an email list in corporate, right? I’m an expert like I’ve been doing this for two or three decades, like that’s my credibility.

And so, you can go, and you can write a book and you can use that book tour. You know, you can use the publication, the launch of the book as your reason to go out and do the interviews and, you know, do the guest posting and the articles and all that, and get your platform going, going that way. You can do it both ways.

And it really, for when people come and talk to me about publishing a book, the conversation I’m usually having with them is, is it worth it? Is there really going to be a return on investment for you? And it looks different for every type of book for nonfiction. It might be. Is there a business case or a speaking case or consulting case for you to write this book for memoir?

It might be, are you starting a non. Maybe, or are you going to do speaking or hosts workshops or really help people in this area of your life that you’re speaking about or writing about and for fiction it’s you going to write more than one book? We don’t all get to be Harper Lee and produced To Kill a Mockingbird and like retire off the proceeds.

Most, most fiction authors. These days, the return on investment comes because they’re writing three or more books in their lifetime as a career or their careers and author. So, they’re gathering their readership. And for that reason, we like to publish multiple things. Two or three fiction books at a time to help them launch those books back-to-back to back and gather that readership.

Does that kind of help give a little bit of an overview? 

Sharri Harmel: I think it’s fantastic. So great though, for a person to recognize where do I fit in? Because there was a part of me that heard the traditional publisher, you know, the standard ones that there’s a little prestige at the cocktail party saying, you know, the book’s been published by blah, blah, blah.

But yet I sense that’s almost kind of going by the wayside to some extent. Okay. Is that true? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Really? It really is. We used to talk a lot about whether self-publishing was a good idea because it’s going to look bad for my credibility. We don’t have those conversations anymore. Not really. No. And now you can self-publish your first book or books and get picked up by a traditional publisher later on.

Sharri Harmel: Totally. It happens a lot. Yeah. If that’s something, you so wish to do. I noticed though, in your, you called it publishing success program. I love that. Are there people who come to you? At all different stages of the book, like I’ve got this idea, he was in my outline. Do you think it’s worth going after Morgan or, you know, do I need to go back to the drawing board, or I’ve got it laid out? This is a winner. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: We get, we get all, 

Sharri Harmel: All sorts, everything in between. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: We do, we have all sorts on our website. You’ll see, kind of like our four phases that we conceive of, of, of the, the creation of a book, right? Phase one is content development. That’s actually coming up with the structure and the narrative flow of the book and actually writing the thing, you know, phase two is comprehensive editing, which for us includes developmental copy proofreading.

Those sorts of things. Phase three is the actual publication, the design inside and out, and actually publishing it to launch well on the Amazon platform. And then the fourth phase is really launching going after the publicity. And for us, that includes podcasts tour, helping to build your email list, um, book awards, endorsements, promotions, things like that.

So, when we think of what a book needs to be successful, it’s all for. Someone might have already written a book. So, we don’t have to, we don’t have to do the content development. We just look at, you know, phases two, three, and four, you know, or sometimes they will have already worked with a professional editor.

We do a manuscript review to kind of double check that the editing really was professional, you know, but if it, if it looks good and we get our, you know, our editorial teams thumb up, like cool, we can just actually just go straight to publishing if, if it really is ready. So, we work with people, we’re a small team, everything’s custom.

So, we work with the individual on kind of what. 

Sharri Harmel: And what’s the time period? So, let’s say someone starts at phase one, you know, they’re coming in, they have the ideas, but they have to actually sit down and write the content. Is this a one-year program typically that they work with you and how often are they hearing from.

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Yep. So, it’s a 12-month program. If we’re doing all four phases and the first phase or that content development, usually about three or four months, and you work directly with one of our senior book coaches, who’s helping you with the structure and the outline, and really sitting down and submitting new writing every single week, getting written feedback from your book coach every week and on the phone with them twice a month to really talk through the new ideas and what works and what’s not working.

And our goal is within three or four months, we’re hitting somewhere around, call it 40,000 or 50,000 words, which is pretty typical for a nonfiction book that may expand. You know, it may be that you’re a prolific writer and you write faster, and it hits 60, 70, 80,000, something like that. But, you know, we, we don’t want to scare people.

It is very normal for a first draft. You know, 40 or 50,000 words. And then afterward we take it into editing. So, we have multiple passes of editing in that editorial timeframe. The, the manuscript may expand a little bit. It may get trimmed, maybe in different areas. So that takes another, probably three months or so.

And so now we’re hitting what is that? Six or seven months. And then it takes four or five months basically to go through a publication and prep for launch. 

Sharri Harmel: You’re speaking though to something. And I think people need to hear this, that committing to writing a book. Is a job, a career path? It is an entrepreneurial venture.

It’s not like you’re going to write it in your closet, come out of the closet and then show up and it’s going to get published or be put on Amazon and no ones. You don’t have to go anywhere. You know, those days are gone. You don’t have to talk to anyone. You don’t have to go anywhere. Cause you’re an introvert I can relate.

And the book is just going to be fantastic. So, I bring this up only because I think in any venture that someone goes after anything that someone wants to start today, you really have to know what is it I want, why do I want it? And what is it going to take to do it? And you’re describing a significant, this is a significant decision in a person’s life to say, I’m going to, I’m going to publish a book.

I’m going to write and publish a book 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: and get it. I think you’re exactly right. It is it, I’m not sure that it ever was this idea of, I write one book and I’m set, there were outliers. I mentioned Harper Lee there. That might’ve happened. I, you know, I don’t know that that was ever a common case. I think for many authors, they did book tours for 12 to 18 months.

You know, they would pre-sell the book for like six months and then they would continue to market the book for another year. After, after they launched the book, that was very common. You were going to towns, and you were on the local TV news radio. You were doing a book signing at the bookstore. I mean, heck we even have like historical records of like mark Twain.

I mean, that was obviously his pen name, writing letters to his readers, you know, and, and, and like, that was part of his job as an author was to respond to those letters and to help cultivate a relationship with his readership base as a, as a published author. So, we’ve always had to do things like that.

And I also think you’re right in that it is even more apparent to us. Because we see authors who are trying different types of publishing. And it just sort of seems like all of them are heck of a lot of work when it comes down to it and you you’ve got to really want it. You’ve got to see what what’s this book going to make possible for me.

And, and, and that has to be a part of the decision, basically. 

Sharri Harmel: Yes. So, it’s not just a financial decision because whether you self-publish a hundred percent or you go to Paper Raven, you know, it’s going to cost you money. And, and so the real question is how it’s, uh, from a financial standpoint, you’re making a financial commitment, but you’re also based on, you know, hoping that there’s return down the road.

But also, obviously it’s an incredible amount of time that you are committing to almost one business if you want to call it that. And that’s the business of my book. If in fact someone is writing a book, would that, would you agree to that? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Is that okay? 100% agree, Shari, and that’s one of the reasons why we have, we have switched around a little bit, how we have our first touch points with potential authors that we would work with.

Now we do ask everyone to go through a process with us. It takes out a month where we are sitting down with them and we’re looking at two things is my book idea or book content, any good. And will my books. Okay. So, so we’re working, you know, we have the author come in and work directly with one of our senior book coaches on the content.

Maybe they already have something written and so we can review what they are. Or maybe it’s an idea and we can help them really start to flesh out that idea. And we can talk about that book. I didn’t really concrete terms and we’re looking at a market analysis. So, we’re going deep into like, you know, on Amazon, for instance, when we’re looking at keywords, are people looking for a book like this?

And when you go into categories, are there other books in this category where this book could compete comparable titles? Are there other books that are selling in this, you know, topic or genre or niche? And then at the end of that month, we pull all of our data points together, notes and reactions and thoughts from the book coaching side, as well as from the marketing side.

And we put it all together and have a real kind of a heart to heart. I have the heart to heart with the author and I’m like, here’s what we think, you know, on the, on the, on the content side and on the marketing side. And, and let’s have a Frank discussion on whether this could really be worth your while.

And, you know, if. Let’s go for it. We take that payment for that particular program and apply it. You know, it’s credited towards working together and the folks who’ve decided not to move forward. It has been for them, something that saved them a lot of time, energy, and money, because. Pivoted on what book they were going to write or chose one book over another book.

Sometimes we help with that decision process as well. So, we, we, you know, we ask everyone to go through that, that discernment process with us before we all, you know, green light let’s go, let’s publish a book. 

Sharri Harmel: So how does that compare to say I’m thinking if I’m, I’m interested in working with Paper Raven books, do I just contact you?

Do I go through a webinar? How, how does. What am I going to get from this? What, what’s a, what’s a great way for me to check out a company and whether or not we’re going to work together. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: So, I do a webinar on occasion that’s called How I sold 10,000 copies of my book and without any social media guest blogging or guest interviews.

And it’s really about our method of marketing, how we really use Amazon these online bookstores to help a debut author. So, someone’s interested in that then go to Paper Raven books.com, you’ll see when we’re running the next workshop and it gives you a really good idea of our approach to both the content side of how you write what would be a bestseller book.

It must be a good book, otherwise you’re going to market it and you’re going to get a bunch of bad reviews. So, it has to be a good book. And how do you actually market it? How do you get it as a new author, as a debut author? How do you get it in front of the right readers? And so, we go through that process and at the end of that workshop, I do talk about, you know, this introductory offer of working with us in this breakthrough kind of bestseller plan.

And it’s a good way to get started with our team, whether we work together or not, you know, there are no strings attached or anything we hope to provide information to that is, uh, others are not providing currently, you know, not a lot of folks are digging into the, the Amazon bookstore quite the way that we are.

Sharri Harmel: And so really helped to provide some clarity there, definitely a great way for someone who’s really, you know, in the market of writing a book beyond just the concept. Just sit down with you and, and hire you for that first analysis, because I, I don’t care who you are. It’s hard to do on your own. If you don’t know the process, you don’t have the ins and outs, you might think, oh gosh, a book on XYZ, whatever it is going to sell, or nobody’s selling a book on XYZ.

So, I should be the one that should write that book, but, you know, that’s just me and my, some of my worst ideas happen when I’m all by myself, 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: You’re having a couple of like, you know, tough conversations where I’ve had to say, look, maybe you can sell a book on what it was like to, you know, be at Woodstock in the seventies.

I just, I don’t think you’re going to sell it on Amazon because. No, one’s actually searching for that. So, you’re going to, we’re going to need a different marketing plan, you know, and whereas for, for some other people, what we’re able to do is sort of like position the book slightly differently. So, I’m a great example would be we’re working with an author now who has had Parkinson’s, or her husband has had Parkinson’s disease.

You would think the word Parkinson’s or Parkinson’s disease would be highly searched on the Amazon plan. It’s not, there are very, very few searches for the word Parkinson’s or Parkinson’s disease. And so what we’ve done is position it as a book on more to do with like long-term illness, caring for a partner through long-term illness, a marriage that lasts, you know, when, when one of the partners is ill, that sort of angle, because of course that’s what her book was about all along, but she was going to really hit home with like, this is all about Parkinson’s.

And I was like, well, let’s, you know, we’re not finding a whole lot of evidence that people are looking for that particular angle. Can we, you know, position it was like, you know, this is what you and your husband’s journey has been like through long-term illness, because yes, that will apply to Parkinson’s and will also apply to chronic fatigue or, you know, tons of other cancer treatments, lots of other diseases.

So, we’re able to kind of open up that, that market a little bit. And of course, it has Parkinson’s in the description. Like that’s a given, but it wasn’t as like hard hitting on that one angle, we were sort of able to open it up a little bit more. So that’s an example of 

Sharri Harmel: what you can. Well, that that’s a perfect sample though.

How we sometimes when we’re by ourselves and in our own heads, we think this is something, this is the way I’m going to go. And yet you are being in a, you know, obviously knowing the market and an expert in that area, but also can see there. It’s not going to be picked up that way. It needs to be picked up in a and M much broader context and relate-ability and connection with potential readers, you know, versus a very tight, narrow niche.

Let’s talk about the kids. How do you, how do you do this? Yes. How do your children are little? So, I work with, I think I would say the extraordinary women markets, probably the 40 plus woman. So, it’s older than you. The children, you might have young kids.

Morgan Gist Macdonald: We lived in New York City, and I had mom friends who were, you know, in their early forties having their first kids or the kids were still in preschool.

Sharri Harmel: So how, how do you manage it all? And, and not to say it’s always smooth. I mean, we all know that it’s sometimes you got a five-year-old with an ear infection and the, we already had 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: to pause the recording here because I had to go ask a five-year-old to move out of earshot because she was bumping and the seven-year-old is just not doing a good job babysitting. It’s a school day and I’ve had the five-year-old home with me all week.

Some days have been better than others, but today I happen to have a couple of interviews. I really want it to be present and not worrying about the five-year-old. So, I had the seven-year-old skipped school. I kept her home from school, and I said, I will pay you a dollar an hour to babysit your five-year-old.

Truancy. She loved the idea, but then I go out there and my five-year-old sitting right outside my door, coughing and play with her Barbies. And I’m like, okay, little one, let’s move a little factor. Doesn’t always go super well. It’s been different in different phases of life. I mean, we already talked about the long winter in New Jersey where it’s just me and the little 

Sharri Harmel: one when know, where do you live? I don’t even know where you live.

Morgan Gist Macdonald:We’re in Colorado now. So, Denver, Denver, Colorado now. But yeah, it’s been a little bit, we’ve moved from my husband’s career and different things. So, when we move and have more kids, like, yeah, things have changed. But for a while I had a part-time sitter who would come to the house two days a week while I would go out to long island and teach.

And I would do a lot of my like work and stuff on the train or evenings. When we moved to Texas, we’re both from Texas, but we moved back to Texas. We had a part-time nanny who I think started it two days a week, and then just slowly increased number of days per week. My business grew and I could support that.

Sharri Harmel: Um, now, I love this, actually. I absolutely love this cause 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I got a letter on our door, and I had to know about it right now!

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. This is real life. And that’s part of, that’s just where there’s no curtains here. We’re not hiding. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: And um, when we moved here, we, the kids were old enough that they could all be in some sort of daycare, pretty easily or school.

So, the two little ones were in a full-time daycare. The two bigger ones were in public school. And now we’re like slowly getting to that moment of freedom where all the children are in public school. Two, three of them can actually get themselves to and from school to live walking distance to the school.

So that’s great. I mean, we’re slowly making it work and it’s just like, sometimes it’s messy. Like my, all my calls yesterday, I had a five-year-old on my lap. It was like, well, their clients are just going to have to be okay with this because. I don’t know what else to do. I’m not going to cancel our call and go through the headache of moving calls to next week.

Sharri Harmel: And so, let’s just, do you have children? So, they, you know, sometimes they’re writing with a child on their lap, so I’m here. It works all always. What are the greatest challenges of owning your own business? You know because it’s the buck stops with you? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I think sometimes much, like when we have an idea for a book, sometimes we have an idea for a business and we’re like, oh, this is going to be the best business idea.

And then when we finally get the courage to take it out to clients, potential clients and start offering people and finding, paying clients sometimes. It’s crickets for a little while, until we figure out how to position our offer to the clients in a way that’s really desirable. You know, we might even say that you want the offer to be irresistible.

It has to be different than something else. It has to be attractive. It has to be exactly what they’re looking for, but they didn’t know what they’re looking for. And they’re willing to pay for the service, especially, you know, folks like us. If we’re going to be running our own business, we probably need to position ourselves to be higher priced because we’re a smaller shop.

And so, we probably are going to want fewer clients. And so, for that reason, we’re probably going to be delivering products or services at a slightly higher price point to help with our margins in those first, you know, first few weeks or months, or even heck you know, a couple of years where you’re like really trying to figure out how.

Not convinced, but how do I make the situation such that clients know where to find me, they know what I offer, and they really feel like it’s worthwhile. And you’re saying yes, and they’re paying me money. And then even, even as you get those first clients in, and then you’re like, oh, I’m doing a lot of work.

I’d like to hire a VA or someone to help in the business. Well, now you’ve got to pay that person. And so. Find more clients or find a way to increase the value of your products or service so that you can charge a higher price point, that sort of thing. And so, it was like, I feel like that’s the thing I’m always thinking about is how do I make it so that I’m super valuable for our client.

They’re excited to work with us and I’m able to pay my team every month, you know, that’s, that really ends up being the thing that I spend the most time sort of figuring out. And of course, that involves lots of pieces that involves marketing and sales and the offer itself and efficiencies and reducing costs and being innovative and all of those things. But it’s that revenue piece. 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. Yeah. That’d be, you know, that’s really interesting that you bring that up because I think sometimes, um, we don’t recognize we can’t be a solopreneur forever. And even if we are a solopreneur for. Our time has to be worth or paint. We have to be paid for our time at some point.

And there’s a lot of, you know, there’s a lot of coaches cause there’s, uh, just, uh, you know, numerous kinds of coaches. You can be. We hear them about an ASK program. I see him everywhere. There are programs for coaches coming out of the woodwork quite honestly. But the bottom line is. Most coaches don’t make any money.

And the reason they don’t make any money is because they sell their time very cheaply and they have not figured out what it is that they do, what they do well and who needs, whatever it is that they’re offering. You didn’t sound like you went through that process. Yours was more layered where you’re stuck.

It sounded anyways, like you started, you know, really you started in grad school helping other grad students write and edit. And then you freelanced after you finished with your masters chose not to go on for your doctorate. You were freelancing helping people, right. Both in academia, as well as, um, I’m assuming books and everything else.

So, yours was more like a layer, almost like a cake. And then I, then I’m adding something else and then I’m adding something else which then makes. The entire product, more valuable for somebody and who is that client? You know, that needs all of that. Would you agree with that? 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I would agree. And it didn’t feel necessarily so smooth as that, you know, going through it, I think is helpful for people to realize is that, you know, and we all sell our time cheaply in the beginning because we have time.

Right. I mean, it, it may not feel like we have a lot of time, but it is. We feel like we have more time than money. So, it’s like, okay, fine. I can, I can spend a few hours doing this. And if someone will pay me to be on the phone with them or review this thing or build this thing for them, you know, I can do that.

I remember in New York walking the streets of, by that point, we’ve moved to Brooklyn with my husband and pushing the strollers and talking about my new website that was putting together. And then my big question was, should I say that I’m charging $18 an hour or $20? Wow. And I landed at 18, you know, so like that’s where I was at that point in time.

When I increased my rates, I was a writing coach for a monthly retainer of $250 a month. And I luckily had a coach of my own, who point blank said, you’re never going to make the money that you want to make when you are working with clients. One-on-one and they’re each paying you $250 a month. She’s like, you can’t, you can’t take on enough clients to get the life you want.

And I was like, oh man, she’s right. She did math and she’s right.

Sharri Harmel: And also, I want to, I went to push in because it’s not just have the lifestyle that you want or to make the amount of money that you want. It’s also to feel as though you’re offering something of value because we really do equate, you know, you know, the doctor gets paid more than somebody else that maybe we don’t need.

And to some extent, maybe that’s not a very, a very good analogy to use, but truly so many women in many of these. Give it away free. We give away our time, we give away our expertise. We say, ah, you know, I’m good at it, but I’m not that good at it. And we’re waiting. I used to be a career coach and women, you know, they wouldn’t apply for jobs because they only had, you know, 90% of the job requirements and the men would apply, honestly, when they had about 60%.

It’s like, I’m good to go. And I find it so interesting that women think, and that’s, that’s how we get caught that we have to be perfect before. And Ryan talks a bit about that, Morgan and I are both in the ASK business coaching group. And so, when I use the phrase, you’re refer to Ryan and that’s who it is, Ryan Levesque.

We have this mindset that I have to get this perfect. Like I can’t be a writing coach if I haven’t done. Uh, what else? You know, and we come up with these standards in our own heads of how good we have to be before 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: We can charge X. But the truth is we’re all making it up as we go. I love that. I have yet to be at a stage of my business where I’m not making up something new.

Right. I mean, of course we have, you know, the stuff that we’ve done multiple times. Okay. That’s solid, it’s a system, whatever. But there was a time when that was new and we were making it up as we were going, you know? And it’s like, that’s just, that’s how it works. But, but you’re right, Sharri, because I remember I, when I was working as a freelance editor and writing coach at first.

Take you on any kind of project that anyone would want to just send my way. It was emails, blog, posts, newsletters, social media, content, dissertations, theses, journal articles, like whatever. It was just sent it to me. And it wasn’t until I decided actually now, I’m only working on books because books are more important.

People are willing to pay more money for books. They’re longer projects for me, it’s more worth my time to put towards one long project. And I just, I mean, it was scary as all get out because I told my entire client list, I’m no longer available as of X date. I kind of put it out in the future so they could get their last projects in with me, you know, a couple of months out.

I’m no longer going to be doing these types of projects. I’m only going to be doing books. So, if you’ve got one last thing to get in with me, get it in now. And then as of X date, it’s only books and just made that decision. And the good news was that, that that was a decision that then opened up. Okay.

Because I now work with books. I can charge a higher price point and, and become known for kind of that, that area and ended up making more money than. Yeah. 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. Love it. Love it. So, talk about Paper Raven, the other, like what’s out there and the reason for Paper Raven, and I was just, you sent out an email cause I’m on, you’re obviously on your email list, something about this pop-up book club.

And I was like, what? I don’t understand what is this pop-up book club. Cause this sounds kind of interesting, but maybe that maybe that’s been around for quite a while and Sherry just saw it and, and it tweaked my interest, but wrap it into that concept of where’s Paper Raven going, and where’s the publishing industry going?

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I love your questions. Yes. Such good questions. 

Sharri Harmel: It’s fascinating actually. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: So, when you spend so many years working with authors, what you realize authors really need is reading. So, then my main concern, if I want our authors to have the best results possible, then their book needs to get in front of the most readers possible, preferably the right readers, the right type of readers.

And you can see how that has been shifting over time. You know, it used to be, that was as easy as getting the book at Barnes and Nobles because that’s where all the readers were going. That shifted over time and the pandemic and increased that shift right now. There’s a lot happening on Amazon set, more than 70% of books are sold on Amazon.

And when you add up eBook paperback, audio book, audible is owned by Amazon and that was pre pandemic numbers. So, it’s been, you know, it’s been a couple of years. It’s probably more than that. Now, 90% of eBooks are sold on Amazon. And so that’s where we do a lot of our best practices right now is like, we need to, we need to maximize that because that’s, what’s working now.

And I’m also trying to think a few years out. I don’t think Amazon is going to last forever. Right? Peer to peer is easier and easier. Getting a book from an author to a reader. In the future is not going to be that complicated. It’s already pretty easy. Write an eBook or an audio file is pretty easy. Even, even mailing a print book has gotten easier and easier over the years.

Right now, Amazon has a lot of that locked up, right? The Kindle, Amazon buys all of the IP of other e-readers and just squashes them so that the Kindle can remain the primary. E-reader they’re not going to be able to do that forever. And, and so, you know, pretty soon authors are going to be able to get the books directly into the hands of readers.

The problem is where can we find the readers? And so, I feel like my next one of my next big projects is cultivating communities of readers, avid readers, people who love books, who love to talk about books, who love to none. If they love to leave reviews about books, but they love to talk about their impressions of books, new ideas that engaged, you know, they were that a book engaged in them, and they want to talk to other readers.

So not that I want it to be opportunistic in that, like here now I have a hundred thousand meters author. I can make you an instant bestseller. Like I don’t think that that’s going to play well in the future. I think it’s going to be a lot more about community and small pockets of readers and having the, the author, having a direct relationship with those readers.

And so, if I can somehow facilitate that, that’s what I want to do. The pop-up book clubs are kind of an experiment. Totally transparent. Bit harder than I thought it would be because who wants to sign up for another zoom meeting to talk about? Right. I really, I thought it was going to be, we’re all going to show up on zoom and we’re going to talk about books as it turns out a lot of readers, like we’re all kind of introverted and we just kind of want to read books.

And so I’m playing around with new ideas where it’s like, okay, maybe there’s like, I want it to be, you know, more fun than a, than a database or a forum, but like some, almost like library of memos where you can like get someone’s honest insights on a book that they read, or if you like this book, then I’d recommend this book or, you know, something where people were readers can like trade ideas and trade notes, but they don’t have to be on a zoom meeting together.

Cause I don’t, as it turns out, I’m not sure people really wanted to do that. So again, we’re all making this up as we go. 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. But I, because that’s a, that’s a very interesting point or a really good point for anyone who’s listening to this podcast is that you just try. You know, I always say you plug your nose and jumped, you know, at the end of the dock or whatever you just try, and you don’t know what’s going to fly.

What’s going to take off. What’s going to do really well. You got a pretty good idea, but you don’t know for sure until you actually do it. You have to do it to find out if it works. That’s really interesting. And 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: so, and I want to sort of like highlight that Sharri, because it said a lot. And I remember it being said, like, you’re going to experience failure.

You have to, you know, be willing to experience failure or try lots of things because most of them are going to fail. But how is anyone going to recover from failure? Like if you fail, isn’t that kind of the end. And as it turns out, no, it’s not like I have been multiple times in situations where like I am out of cash and out of credit and I’m like, I don’t actually know what is going to happen in the next week, but it’s in moments like that, where you suddenly get a flash of creativity and you figure it out and you make it work and you find a new client, or you find a new business, you know, joint venture opportunity or, or something happens, you know, that’s unexpected.

And you, you feel like you get sort of like someone just pulled you out of the, out of drowning with a, with a rope, but like do figure it out. And so, I mean, just to sort of say that out loud, I wish that’s something that I had known earlier on in my business days. It’s like the reason that people can say that you will fail is because you really do, like, you do get to points where you, a team member leaves.

We’re all the money has gone or, or a client fires you. And it’s terrible in that moment, but I mean, the good news is you do typically wake up the next day and you have a better idea 

Sharri Harmel: and a new way forward. And somehow that’s really interesting. It’s like a treasure. I always call it like a treasure map.

Now I have to do a lot of this talking to myself too, but that a treasure map where you try different, you try to go different directions and you hit walls or you hit the cave or you hit whatever, that’s no entry and, and you don’t stop. You don’t sit down at that point and say, I’m done. You know, I’m not going to continue to try to find the treasure.

I’m going to go back and regrew and then find a different direction to go. But it’s hard. It is hard it’s. And as a solopreneur, now, I’m sure your husband is incredibly supportive. He’s, is he your cheerleader? Would you say. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: He is my cheerleader, but he has to be reminded of the vision too. That’s part of, you know, when you start bringing in clients, you’re giving them the vision of what’s possible for them.

You start bringing in team members, you’re giving them a vision of what’s possible for the company, with your family. You know, if I’m having late night meetings or I’m hosting a weekend bootcamp like guests, who I’ve got to share that vision with, and I better share it in such a way that he’s like, okay, hi, I’m like, go, go get him.

But it, it like I have that vision has to be so strong in me that when I start sharing with other people, I can enroll them in that vision and really get their support.

Sharri Harmel: That’s interesting though, too, to remember, to not forget. And don’t assume they’re going to support, support, support. Even if they, they have no information, they don’t know where you’re going.

And so, to some extent you have to loop them in whether they’re in the business or not loop them into what, what you’re imagining. And even through that process of failure. Yes, honey, this didn’t work. This is the direction I’m going. So that there’s complete openness between you because he is your cheerleader.

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I’m assuming. Yeah, because I’m the one with the riskier proposition. He’s doing his nine to five. He loves his job. He has no desire to be an entrepreneur. He thinks I’m a little crazy, but he’s like go for it because my position is the riskier one. And the more flexible one I do still maintain the responsibility of the.

And the house and the meals and all that stuff. I mean, for me, I feel like that’s just part of the agreement that we’ve reached together. That keeps him feeling like my business is not infringing on his life too much. Right. If that makes sense, he, we know he’s got to be in the office for these hours, that was sort of predetermined.

And so, for me to decide, yes, this business is so important for our family and our really our family’s future, too, that it’s like, okay, I’m willing to take this on. And he shares the burden. Sure. But I, I try not to sort of foist more than it’s more than I have to on him. If that makes sense. I find other ways I have someone who, you know, helps us with meals twice a week.

She drops off Indian Curry dishes and rice and stuff. So, there’s creative ways for me to get help that does like the, I don’t have to ask him to take on my responsibilities. I can also actually just outsource. To someone else to help with laundry or meals or their partner is a client.

Sharri Harmel: You know that you have to, you know, engage in this whole, whatever, and you don’t need to necessarily share all of the struggles, all of the challenges of minute by minute.

And as their that’s not their job, their job is a different job that has issues and whatnot challenges. Are there times or places where you are most creative or you get the most strategic direction, or like where, how do you, how do you get those ideas? Some people tell me things like I don’t get out of bed right away in the morning.

I lay there in that halfway point between asleep and can I get all kinds of ideas. I mean, I’ve heard crazy idea, crazy feedback as to when their creative moments are where yours. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I liked journaling. So I am, I’m a journaller. I like being up early. So, I do prefer to be awake before most of the family, my nine-year-old wakes up super early, but he pretty much sticks to himself in the mornings too.

You know, I like to be up when it’s called. And just, you know, being in, being in the quiet house journaling, maybe I get out and exercise, go for a walk or something and then come back and it’s still quiet. Those are really, really inspiring times for me. Typically, I also do take pockets throughout the day where I’m not necessarily available, like notifications are off.

I’m not checking email. I don’t have my phone on. I try to make sure that there are, there’s at least, you know, 25 minutes to an hour during the day where I’m just sort of like letting the day kind of wash away and, and maybe I even journal mid-day or, or meditate, or just try to be quiet. Um, and that’s been, that’s been a practice for me.

I love learning. So, I feel like my natural tendency is to always have a book or a podcast or something going, or, you know, I’ve got another screen over here. I might be listening to like a course while doing something over here on my main screen. And so, it’s a discipline for me to sort of carve out. Time where I’m not consuming content or I’m not responding to people and just kind of letting that be a part of, especially my morning and especially kind of my mid-day and ideas come.

Sharri Harmel: Yeah. That’s great. Great feedback. Okay. Last question. There are so many different other things you could be doing. What is the, what is the source of the joy you get out of having your own business? It doesn’t make you join. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I will admit I’m still in a position where if I went out and got a full-time job, I would probably be able to demand a salary that is more than I am taking home from my business.

Sure. I do want to say that, like, you know, so it’s, it’s really not about the money right now, and it’s a hard place to be in there have been times where I’ve been able to take home more money. And, and this is currently a season where I am choosing, like, I’ve chosen to bring on a team member who, you know, we’re just paying her more money. Cause she’s fantastic. And we want to keep her, and I think she’s going to help us grow the business. And so, for a season, you know, I’m, I’m taking home less. So, I want to just acknowledge that as like a. Yeah. I don’t know something that I’m experiencing in real life. I don’t know if that’s normal or not, but it is, 

Sharri Harmel: it’s not just about the money either.

Morgan Gist Macdonald: So yeah, exactly. I mean, my hope is that we’re growing such a solid business, that I will be able to increasingly step out of operations and, and take a piece home as, you know, just as the owner. Right. I mean, that is absolutely the vision for the company. And so, I’m, I am doing it for like the long-term financial gain is, is the plan.

And there’s a short-term sort of ebbs and flows here and there, and that’s fine. And, and in those moments, you there’s occasional days where I’m like, why am I doing this again? I think clients are getting what they want. The team is getting paid. Like, what am I getting again? You have to really think about it.

And, and what I have discovered is I’m so glad that I’m no longer freelance editing at $18 an hour. It was something I was good at. And I think the phrase that’s often used is like an area of competence or an area of excellence or whatever was something that I was good at, but was never, I was never going to grow.

In that particular set of, of tasks, right? If I just stuck with freelance editing, what I’m able to do now is really grow and learn. I’m learning so much. I mean, Sherry, you and I are in this ASK Method thing with Ryan Levesque that you’ve mentioned and all these online communities and programs, and I’m learning so much about marketing and building a business and leadership.

And it’s like that. I feel like that inner expansion of like what’s possible. And that is so fun. I love building out is going to get geeky. I love the funnels. I love going on a, a good online marketing funnel. I love thinking about the system of like, how can we make this book publishing and launching experience like that best experience possible?

You know, I love thinking about like the new ideas. How can we get in front of more readers? Like all of those things, I feel like I’m getting to spend more and more and more of my time in those areas. And that makes it totally worthwhile. 

Sharri Harmel: Well, and that’s something that’s very hard to get in a corporate position is the variety of kind of strategic.

Futuristic, where am I going? How could I grow this? You know, typically, unless we’re even a CEO, you know, of a corporate and a large corporation, you are CEO of Paper Raven books, but the only at that level, do you get the opportunity to lay in bed and say, where do I want this company to go? Oh my gosh, let’s go there.

And you can do that because it’s your company. You are the CEO. Yeah. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: I love it. It’s fun in a, it’s a high risk, high reward situation for sure. But I would, I would rather lean into the high risk and in hopes of the high reward down the road. 

Sharri Harmel: Well, more than I hear, I think it’s in your DNA. Wow. What do you call mineral rights or whatever the stuff underneath the ground? That’s high risk. It’s high-risk rewarded. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Well, you never know if you’re going to …

Sharri Harmel: say exactly. So, tell people, just remind people where to go, to find you to find Paper Raven books. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald:: So, our home on the internet is https://paperravenbooks.com/. And if you want a direct link to that workshop that we run on occasion, it is paperravenbooks.com/bbp.

There should be an upcoming workshop that I’ll be running shortly. So, you all should be able to, to hop on there. That’s a good intro to, to kind of our philosophy around publishing and marketing, and, um, would give you the details of that first step of working with our team. If that. If that were something people are interested in.

Sharri Harmel: Absolutely. Fantastic. Well, thank you. 

Morgan Gist Macdonald: Thank you for sharing your audience with me. I love the business coaching group with you. I love seeing all the things that you’re doing and you’re influencing so many women who are thinking about a business, or maybe, maybe making the jump. And this is such a critical moment to be speaking hope and encouragement into a woman’s life.

So, thank you for leading this conversation. 

Sharri Harmel: Yeah, we can all do it. We really can. And, and if we support each other, we’ll grow whatever it is. We’re trying to grow to a much bigger place. So, I’m, I’m very grateful for our conversation today and, and truly grateful for the opportunity to work with women.

Fantastic.

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